Thanks for tuning in for Gospel Solutions for Families on the Mormon Channel. This show is all about offering practical, relevant tips for raising children in faith. I'm your host, Amy Iverson.

In this episode, we're talking about when and how to talk to your kids about sexual intimacy. Whether you consider discussing sex as a daunting obligation or a teaching opportunity, these conversations are critical to helping your child develop a healthy sexuality and loving relationship with their future spouse. In For the Strength of Youth, it says: "Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife." So how do we make sure our kids are getting that message? Joining me today is Brother M. Joseph Brough, Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency. Brother Brough has served as a mission president, Young Men president, and a bishop. He has his MBA from the University of Utah and is married with four kids. Also joining us is Alaina Chatterley, a licensed clinical social worker with a master's degree from BYU. She works as a mental health therapist for teenagers and is married with three children. Thank you for being here today. Brother Brough, let's start talking about how important it is that parents are the ones who have these discussions with their kids. Well, first of all, as you know, the voice of the world wants to teach them these things. They can find out about intimacy in media, from friends, and all over the place. It's best to have those who can teach with the Spirit and who they trust. So if you start with them when they're young, parents are innately trusted. Now, as they get older, not quite as much. But still, it's important to have those conversations so that there's a reference of someone they know that cares and that's open with them. And the Holy Ghost is the key. None of us are going to be professionals at this. But parents are the best source to receive revelation for their children, anyway. Well, Alaina is kind of a professional in this, a little bit. But Alaina, what are some things that parents can do to be prepared when our kids come to us to have these discussions? I think it starts from their earliest years. Like, even innocent little questions of a three- or four-year-old. Give age-appropriate tidbits of information. I think the old adage that you have, like, "the talk" when you reach some magical age--I don't know that that's very applicable anymore. I think that if we focus on one small piece of information, answering our children's questions as they come to us a piece at a time, helps us be ready to then put the puzzle pieces all together later rather than having it be one big, potentially really awkward conversation. I just think as we teach our kids a little piece at a time all through the ages--listening to the Spirit, listening to when, in the car on the way to soccer practice, somebody has a question, and it's a good time to put your 60-second plug for something in. They don't have to be long. And I think we hear that a lot, that we have to start young. We have to start young. But what does that mean? How young do we start, Brother Brough? Well, first of all, intimacy is something that's part of life. It's natural. It's got to be something that is just part of the home. And at two- and three- and four-year-olds, they're seeing Mom and Dad hold hands. Mom and Dad are affectionate. Mom and Dad are kind to each other. And so there's a natural interest in saying, "That looks good. That's what I would like." And so those are actually the first signs of teaching intimacy when they're that little. They're starting to see that this is good. Marriage is good. And as you go along, I thought Alaina's answer is very appropriate. Age-appropriate questions will pop up. Curiosity does. You know, "Mom, why's your tummy growing?" And you have to find the right answers at those times. But being opportunistic is key, and making sure that you start when it's appropriate. And you'll have children, as they get into the teenage years, some are much more advanced than the others. But the Spirit will guide. But starting earlier is better than later. Yeah, because you mentioned that in the interview, when 12-year-olds go in to see if they can do baptisms for the dead, this is a question. Absolutely. The bishops can ask them, "Do you live the law of chastity?" And they're 12 years old. So there's an expectation they already know what that means. And frequently, as a bishop, you'll have someone come in and they have no idea. And that's too bad that parents haven't taken the opportunity to at least start into what that means. So Alaina, how can we talk with our kids about sexual intimacy in a way that we don't convey that it's a bad thing? I think sometimes it's a mixed message. You know, it's good but it's bad. So how do we make sure that we're clear on that? Absolutely. It's a mixed message, because I think we as adults, a lot of times, aren't prepared to have that explained in our own mind. I think that this is a day of information. Our kids can handle a lot of information. And they can get right on Google and look for information. So I think helping them understand the biological portions, that we are mammals, we procreate, we have children--like, that's part of our species. But also talking about what a gift intimacy is. I love that, what you read there from the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet. It talks right away about how it's a beautiful thing. I think we help our youth know that intimacy is a beautiful thing and it's a gift to us that helps tie a marriage together. When they understand the biological bonding that happens, like, in the brain when oxytocin is released and couples turn toward each other, It's the same bonding chemical that's there when a mother has a new infant. That bonds the mother to that new child. There are biological forces at play that I think we can help our youth understand, that help them know why it's important to treat them carefully and be safe with them and why Heavenly Father's given us this law of chastity for happiness and protection. More than just a test of obedience that you need to answer correctly at the bishop's interview, but to really, actually see the reasons that it's there. To bless us. And Brother Brough, you had talked about, we as parents need to make it fun, too, to talk about and not a very, always a heavy, heavy, serious conversation. Exactly. I'm going to read a quote on that, first of all here, from Elder Nelson. It's--he's speaking on this topic--said: "As [your children] share with you what's going on, you will have to listen very carefully and without being judgmental in order to understand what they are thinking and experiencing. ... You need to have frequent, open discussions during which you teach your daughters [and sons] the truth about these issues." So it needs to be something that it becomes commonplace. It's just normal. My wife is really good with this. My son, we have one son and three daughters, and so he'd get to the point where, "Mom, quit asking me if I've seen pornography." And she's like, "Well, I'm going to ask you every week because I just want to talk about it when it happens." And it was just open around our house to where it was a common issue, a common topic, so that when it was time to be serious and talk about it--I remember, very much, the first time I sat down with my son and said, "We're now going to talk about masturbation." It was like, "Oh, is this one serious or what?" But if you make it to where it's a common and frequent enough topic and have some fun with it-- And your wife, you said, also talked with your daughters about things-- Absolutely. --very openly and often. I love what Alaina was teaching in her blog when she talks about, enjoy the little issues, the little things that happen as you come along. My wife loved to know when someone held their hand or didn't. "Did he hold your hand? Did you want him to?" And those are the little signs of intimacy that can be appropriate in the process of dating and coming to get to know one another. That you need to make it fun. And if you look down on that, or you're suspicious of them instead of having a little bit of joy with them when those things happen, it inhibits that free talk when maybe it's serious later on. And I know a lot of parents get worried, and I've heard this, that, "But if I talk to them about it, they're going to be more interested in it." But that really isn't the case. No. I absolutely disagree, because, like I said, information age. It's out there. They're curious. They hear people talking. My daughter was in second grade when we had the full birds-and-the-bees talk, because she was hearing things at school and on the playground that were just not appropriate. And that's really young. I think she was not even eight yet. And so-- Every kid's going to be different. Yeah. And you never know what conversations they're having with their friends or what they might be exposed to. You have to be fluid, I guess, as a parent. So, Alaina, for parents who may feel like they didn't do it right and they messed up before, they didn't talk to their kids enough, and now their children are older, I mean, how--sometimes parents don't even know where to start. Where can we start? Absolutely. It's overwhelming. I have a couple pieces of advice. One, you could talk to friends of yours, siblings of yours. What have they done with their children? How did this conversation go? Families who are like yours that share similar values. Or maybe their kids are better and--or have personalities similar to yours. You could pick the brains of people around you that you love and trust. They may also have books to recommend. And I would recommend asking even, "Hey, did any of you have any books, you know, picture books?" There are some, you know, like, pornography books for young children that also teach about what happens in the brain with intimacy. I think those sorts of resources might be a good place to start also, especially if you aren't sure where to start yourself. And pictures help when you're turning pages. So I think there are a wealth of resources out there that you--I don't have any that I'll name right now-- We don't have to do it alone. Yeah, you don't have to do it alone. Great. Brother Brough, do you know of any good resources for us? In addition to that, the Church has made an effort to help us already. On LDS.org, if you go to the LDS Media Library and type in "family conversations," I think there's 18 videos that show two professionals, very much like Alaina, that are addressing how you talk about these things with your children. And I looked at them before I sat down today to feel where they were going and to listen to their teaching. Very well done. Another good resource. Uh-huh. So let's talk about that lesson. Alaina, you gave this lesson to the youth in your ward recently about the law of chastity. And it all revolved around food, which I think we can all relate to. Well, I have a major sweet tooth. So that was my natural, like, parallel. And it was a good analogy. You started by handing out pineapple to all the kids. Tell us what that was about. OK. So when you first see a piece of pineapple, and you're hungry, and it's after an hour of church, and it's really exciting to have, it's very sweet. And at the same time I told a story about the first time I remember laying eyes on who's now my husband and how exciting that was. And I watched him walk by out my window, stalker-like. They all laughed at that-- These are the simple joys we were talking about. And the simple joys that are there when it's just so exciting in the beginning. These small, innocent pleasures. But then we moved onto grapes, and once you've had really sweet grapes, that pineapple just wasn't quite as sweet anymore. And that's just what happens. It's how your body works, taste buds and all that. And we moved on down the progression of sweetness. At the same time, talking about as physical things move on, and you get further and further, you lose some of that innocent, fun sweetness. And eventually you get to a point that once you've had, say, chocolate cake-- Yeah. --deep, dark chocolate cake. Even the grapes and all that other stuff isn't very sweet anymore; it's not interesting. And you gave them the option at the end, chocolate cake. And then you also had some vegetables. Yeah. And we brought in the food guide pyramid. You know, they learn my plate nowadays, I think. But in the food guide pyramid, those bottom levels, you put in a lot of just the staples. The good, day-to-day, everyday things that are part of a healthy relationship, too. When you're dating and getting to know somebody--either through your teen years where you're just learning about what works with you and people you like and don't--and also when you're building a relationship with a person that will one day be your forever mate. You need to put in time doing the sort of boring things. You know, breads and rice and all those good things. Because if you eat all your sweets at the top, the good vegetables and healthy things aren't as exciting. Same thing. If you spend all your time kissing and cuddling, then weeding the garden or going on a family road trip together is just not as fun. And I think that plays into what you were saying, Brother Brough, about having your children seeing you as a couple, as a married couple, doing those things that may seem boring but are the fundamentals of a good marriage. Absolutely. You know, as she was sitting here speaking, I was thinking that scripturally we don't find a whole lot about sexuality. But we do. And one of my favorite parts in the Old Testament is, it's "Adam knew Eve ...; and she conceived." And I love the word knew, that it's part of a process of getting to know someone, spending time getting that foundation that you're speaking about. True intimacy, at its best, is with someone you really know. And how can you do that without having gone on that walk in the park, climbed that mountain together, spent a lot of time talking? Those are so important to the emotional aspect of having healthy sexuality. Yeah, they're missing out if they don't really get to know someone. We always joked around our house, "If you don't get really nervous when you're holding her hand the first time, you don't like her enough yet. If it's not making you nervous, take a little more time." Because it should be exciting and nervous, because they really want it to be right. And they'll get to know someone. So-- Those basics. And so this talk or this lesson that Alaina gave, you felt was good for your youth. And I think, as parents, we have to be very cognizant and prayerful about how we teach our children, how we teach our classes. It's going to be different for everyone. But how important is it, Brother Brough, that we are prayerful about this when we are going to speak to our kids about it? Well, the scriptures are full of times of teaching that indicate that you don't teach unless the Spirit's with you. If you're nervous, that's OK. The Spirit can be with you when you're nervous. You can be scared; the Spirit can be with you. If you're angry, it can't. And so being prayerful and preparing for the right time and being opportunistic--knowing what your feelings are at the moment that you speak--is key. But you know, just like we pray for missionary opportunities, why not pray for opportunities? Say, "I have this 17-year-old. Maybe I haven't spoke to him yet like I should." Yeah. But why not pray and say, "Heavenly Father, open the door. I need to speak to him and I don't know how." And then Heavenly Father will always open the door. You might find that you're sitting next to that 17-year-old the next day during a commercial on the television. And you say, "Oh, that makes me uncomfortable. How does that make you feel?" And just have something that opens up and gives you the opportunity to address those issues. But the Holy Ghost is key. And if you pray, Heavenly Father will give you the chance. Alaina, I know that your lesson was about trying to help the youth understand why, because we talk about the law of chastity, but a lot of times maybe we don't follow up with the why. And there are some serious spiritual and emotional damage that can take place if kids don't follow this law. Talk about that. Well, our bodies are tied to our soul, to our spirits. I think we're taught that in many places in the gospel. That's part of our foundation. And so if our youth understand that and can also understand biologically what's happening, body- and chemical-wise, with your heart getting involved and your emotions getting tied to another person--if we can emphasize that that's a gift given to us to use at the right time to cement a marriage together, to cement and cause bonding in the right time and the right place, it's a great thing. But imagine the heartache and the heartbreak that comes when somebody breaks up with you. Or somebody doesn't call back, or kisses your best friend, or all these things happening when you've really shared a piece of your soul, a piece of your intimacy, with somebody when it's not the right time and the right place. And this is common with our kids. I actually taught this lesson just last night to another group of young women who had different needs than my ward. And I felt very strong, at that time, being prayerful about it to emphasize the fact that if you've gone beyond these bounds, if you're past this and you think the law of chastity doesn't apply to you anymore because it's too late, not so. From this moment on, all future relationships, all future intimacies, you get to be the gatekeeper of that. And you get to have the Holy Ghost and the Spirit with you as you're trying to make good decisions for forming your own healthy attachments and being able to keep the Spirit with you, because you haven't wounded your soul. Yes. That's the part I was looking for, because I think that we can't stress enough to our kids that when we make bad decisions in this area, the Spirit really can leave us. Brother Brough? You know, as she was speaking here, I think something that parents need to teach also, and us as leaders in the Church, too, is, repentance is a good thing. Our youth make mistakes. We make mistakes. Without repentance, none of us return to our Heavenly Father. And so as you're teaching this topic, repentance has got to be something that's quick on your tongue, and saying these things can be made right. There is no such thing as a soiled cloth that can never be clean again. That's just not true. And so as you're teaching--and as a parent, sometimes, something's going to happen and a child's going to come along and make a mistake. And the last thing you can do is act devastated and destroyed. You've got to be full of faith in saying, "This can be fixed, and I'm even willing to help you." Because, yeah, there are some that think, to her point, "I can't be the gatekeeper in the future. I'm soiled. I can't be clean." They can make a decision to change and can become clean again. I love in the scriptures--you've got Coriantumr, who, we know what his sin was. I mean, one of the sons of Alma. He obviously goes to the border of the Lamanites with the famous harlot, and everybody knows what he's done wrong. And his father, honestly, corrects him fairly harshly in the scriptures. And beautiful scriptures for us to use. But I love it later when Captain Moroni is being described by Mormon as one of the greatest of all time. And he says it wasn't only him, but it was also Alma and his sons. And I started thinking, "Coriantumr must have really repented to have been included in that group." And so we've got to look at it and give hope when we're teaching that issue as well. It's key to be speaking about repentance as a good thing. And Alaina, I know that you work with a lot of teens. And I can't help but think of parents who might be out there and say, "I think my kid might be struggling with this, but they won't open up no matter what you do." How can we encourage that if maybe we weren't so great at doing it when they were young? And now they are in the thick of it. How can we encourage them to talk to us? One thing that comes to mind--and I feel the need to throw out that talking is best and first, but there are other options. Like, do you think of stories of parents writing letters to their children or exchanging notes back and forth like that? If, prayerfully, you feel like that's a good way to approach this topic with your children, at any age, that might be the right way. Some are super shy and would rather die than talk about a topic like this but, through writing, might write you back questions or would at least know that you're opening the gate and the door for when they're ready to come and talk to you. Just in researching this, I sent my teenagers a text last night about some things. I didn't get a response yet, but thank you. I'm glad to know that maybe, at least, I opened the door. And I know that you said there have been moments in your family where you talked to your children and they didn't even know what to ask. Absolutely. You know, and persistence and staying with it and trying different things is absolutely key. Sometimes it gets to points when even as parents, what do you ask? You have the feeling. And I think it's OK to say, "Guess what? I have one son. Son, this is a first-time father with you and everything you ever do, because I'm only having one." So everything I'm doing, it's the first time. And let them know, "I'm going to make mistakes," and tell them that it makes you nervous. What's wrong with that? "Hey, I'm nervous. I want to talk about this. Can we?" And if they say no, that's fine, too. And it might be a one-way conversation the first time. You're the only one talking. And you just share your heart and your concerns. The most important--they need know you love them, anyway, to be able to address these issues. So if you're sharing your thoughts with them, sooner or later they're going to respond. Well, I'd like to add to that. I'm glad you hit on that. They may not talk back. And nobody likes being told things that they maybe already know or they think are uncomfortable. But you as a parent could say, could ask permission. "Can I talk to you? Or can I share this?" And just then share your heart. You know, if they have opened the door enough for you to at least be willing to share--even if they don't ask back, because some are awkward. They may not know what to ask. But if you're at least talking and sharing what you're thinking and what you're worried about and that you don't know everything, that is another way to open the door. Show our own humility. I think it's interesting that both of you brought up this point, that don't be so afraid that your kids might mess up. You mentioned that earlier. And I know you've said that to me, too, that when we talk about sexual intimacy in a positive way, that that has to be one of the main things parents do, is don't be so afraid that your kid will mess up. Likely they will. Right? Yeah. Which is a scary thing to think about, because we spend--and maybe this is just telling my own experience, but I spent the first 30 years of my life thinking that my goal was to just raise a good family where nobody ever messed up and they all did the right things and stayed right on track. And if I could get there, then I had succeeded as a person and a parent. But if you really think about Jesus's plan and Satan's plan, it was not Jesus's plan that was going to make everybody get things right and do it right the first time. I know. It would be so much easier sometimes. It would be so much easier, yeah. But I really think that our role as parents is to teach and to educate and to invite the Spirit and help them have those internal desires which come through spiritual discussions and spiritual invitations. They don't come through fear and rigid standards and "This way or else." And that's another point I think is important, is how do we stay away from those fear tactics and the shame tactics that I think a lot of us resort to? Because we're freaking out sometimes when we hear things. Because we don't know the answer. You know, every child's going to be different. And we can't sit here and give one philosophy that's going work for all. Right. As I mentioned to you earlier, my youngest daughter, an absolute angel--we never deserved her. Matter of fact, maybe we did because we're not very good parents. Heavenly Father decided to send us one of the easiest children in the world. Make it easy. But this one, honestly, all you had to do is say, "Do you love Heavenly Father? You know, then you should do it." And she so loves her Heavenly Father that it didn't matter what it was. Obedience for her was good enough. And it was based not on a test, not on that "I'm going to be punished if I'm not," but "I do love Heavenly Father. I'm going to keep His commandments." And so with her, it's a totally different process than it is the one that you know is adventuring in areas that are unsafe and testing water. But you do still have to address both of them. The really strong one, if we never talked to her about what intimacy should be in marriage, maybe she gets to marriage and she has no idea what it's about. And it makes her nervous. So it's as important with that child as it is with the one that maybe is testing the water, that you'd be speaking about these topics. And when maybe the day finally comes when that child does come to us and has made a mistake, how do we react? What's the best way? How can I be the best parent in that situation? Ask a lot of questions. Lots and lots of questions. You can't go wrong if, while you're getting your own feet under you, and inside freaking out, thinking "Oh, my gosh, how am I going to react?" if you're asking questions like "How do you feel about that? How would you like to be different? What can I do to help? What would you like in your future? Where do you want to be three years from now?" You know, if they're not committed, maybe, to changing the lifestyle. "Where do you want to be?" And then, "How can I help?" Just all those questions help open up the conversation and help calm your heart and keep you from freaking out. I like that. Ask questions instead of trying to come up with an answer quickly. One thing I'd like to add to that too--thank them. Yes. The first thing should be "Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me. I really, really appreciate that." And what you know is, most of the bishops are going to respond the same way. The first thing they are going to say is "Thank you. That's hard to share." So I like the idea of lots of questions. But they've got to know that to you it's appreciated that they're coming forward and they're being honest. Most of the time when they come forward and they're being honest, it is because they want the change. It's rarely that they still want to hide it from you. They just brought it up. So as a parent you should actually think, "That's a great moment. Look what they just did. They are searching, and they came to me." So it is definitely not the time to be angry in any way or show that it hurts you. It does. This could hurt every parent. Let's be honest. We want the best for our children. But at that moment it's all going to be about "Thank you. Now where do we go? What do you want to do?" Can I add to that? In addition to thanking them, showing forth love. Showing forth affection. Especially like dads to daughters or mothers to sons, that it hasn't crossed like "You're an untouchable, you are unclean," any of that. Reaching out, embracing, being there for them, and showing that it doesn't diminish their worth, because it doesn't in their Heavenly Father's eyes. And parents can model that, when they're already feeling so guilty. Yes. If they came to you, what a great big step. I always have to think of the parents who may be out there thinking, "I have failed. I have failed at this. I haven't had the discussions. It's too late. I've ruined my children." Let's start with you, Alaina. What is the hopeful message you have for these parents? I don't think it's ever too late. You think about adult relationships we have with our own parents and how much joy we can find in those, in communication and talking, getting to know them. I think it's never too late to try to start these conversations. And maybe with humility--maybe you say, "Hey, you're getting married next month. And I know we've never had the talk, but now's the time. What do you want to know?" And they may not want to know anything. And you apologize and say, "Well, sorry. I'm here for you in the future." And we just own where we're at and approach them with an open heart and start there. OK. Brother Brough, how do we approach this if we feel we haven't been stellar in this so far? Well, I'm going to share a little story first. And then I'll answer that. One time I was watching my father, who was Elder Monte J. Brough, correcting my youngest sister. And I thought he was being way too soft on her, way too kind. I'm the oldest. And I said to my father, I said, "If that was me, you would have clobbered me." And he said, "Well, what I did on you didn't turn out so well. So I'm trying something new." And as parents, we've got to learn to try things new as we go along. The first thing that I look at is, say, as a mission president, missionaries frequently are searching for the same thing. They remind me of parents. "Am I a good missionary?" And I think Preach My Gospel has the best answer to this. So I'm going to read it. But I want to change where it says "missionary" to "parent." OK. And where it says "investigator" to "children." OK: "Your success as a [parent] is measured primarily by your commitment to ... teach [your children] and to help them become faithful members of the Church who enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost." So, primarily measure by commitment. Now I'm going to keep reading: "Avoid comparing yourself to other [parents] and measuring the outward results of your efforts against theirs. Remember that [your children] have agency to choose whether to accept your message. Your responsibility is to teach clearly and powerfully so they can make a correct choice. Some [of your children] may not accept your message even when they have received a spiritual witness of its truth. You will be saddened because you love them and desire their salvation. You should not, however, become discouraged; discouragement will weaken your faith. If you lower your expectations, your effectiveness will decrease, your desire will weaken, and you will have a greater difficulty following the Spirit." So what I've got to say to parents, what I'd say to a missionary who's in his last month, "How can I know that I've been a great missionary?" It's, start with that commitment today, that commitment to do everything you can to lead those children along. That's fine if it's the week before they get married. And say, "Hey, you know, sorry I didn't do so well. I'm starting today." Heavenly Father measures you at the end of your life at what you've become, not in the middle. And I love that you brought up to me about effort, that we are measured by our effort. So maybe our child isn't making the choices we wish they were. But if we have put forth that effort with the Spirit, that's what we need to worry about. Absolutely. And that's hard for a mother to hear, because she wants her measurement to be results. But Heavenly Father looks on her effort. Children have free agency. They do. We would love to have Satan's plan at times, as parents, and take it away from them. But we cannot. So to those parents I'd say, keep on trying. Heavenly Father recognizes what you're doing. And you never know when that one child is going to come back. You've just got to keep the faith. Thank you so much. Thank you, Alaina. We've been talking with Brother M. Joseph Brough, Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency, and Alaina Chatterley, a licensed clinical social worker, about talking to your kids about sexual intimacy. We have links to additional helpful resources on this topic at mormonchannel.org. Our thanks to Brother Brough and Alaina for joining us today. And thank you all for tuning in. Gospel Solutions for Families on the Mormon Channel. Subscribe to the podcast on mormonchannel.org, the Mormon Channel app, or on iTunes. [MUSIC PLAYING]